Private Emails
These are private emails I have exchanged with a number of people in the past year. Ther are in alphabetical order of correspondent then date order. They have been edited to remove as much duplicate and extraneous data as possible.
You can download a zipped plain text version of this page here.
Robert Colwill
12/6/2007
Peter,
It appears we have a match in our trees. You have Martin,Ruth,James and Mark Semmens and so do I.Martin is my G.G.Grandfather.
24/6/2007
Robert,
I have updated my database with the members of the Semmens line that I did not have, together with more details for those already in it.
In the past month I have been contacted by two other descendants of Samuel James Semmens, one of them is descended from Martin.
....
The other person on this site who is descended from Martin is John Pember.
Regards,
Peter.
Iris Roberts
4/5/2007
Hi Iris,
I found your January post on Roots Web:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SUSSEX-PLUS/2007-01/1168862645
I was wondering if you could give me further details of the 1871/81/91 census records you found for these people, as my search of the 1861 census has drawn a blank so far.
Do you have details of the Piece, folio etc?
William Samuel Semmens appears to have married my GGrandmother's sister, Mary Jane Semmens and I thought that I would try to track this probable cousin marriage back to the common ancestors.
Regards,
Peter Jennings
6/5/2007
Hi Peter
I was very pleased to get your message as I have come to a complete standstill as far as the Semmens family is concerned. However, I can
give you some information. Mary Jane Simmons was my husband's grandmother. She married William Samuel Semmens on 21 May 1893 in Islington. Her surname was SIMMONS despite being SEMMENS on the marriage certificate. She was the daughter of John Simmons and Rebecca Kingsbury Gooch and was born on 4 Nov 1865 in Goldhanger Essex. She had two sisters Elizabeth born 1869 in Goldhanger and Maud born 1876 in Rotherhithe. I do not have any details of marriages of either of the sisters.
The reason that you cannot find the 1861 Census is that the name is transcribed as LEMMENS!! Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of it, funnily enough, I did have a look at it again yesterday to try to find some more information at my Local FHC and the printer would not print. But if you look for LEMMENS in Southwark you will find them along with two children, James and Ann Maria. I have been unable to find any of the family in any other Census. I have also been unable to find Mary Jane or Samuel Semmens on any Census until the 1901 Census when they appear in Portsmouth with their two daughters Maude and Gladys.
I trust this is of interest to you and if I can assist you with anything else please get back in touch.
Regards
Iris
6/5/2007
Iris,
Thanks for this information. The family name was definitely SEMMENS originaly. Maybe your branch changed it to SIMMONS, although
I have found it mis-transcribed in several other documents including census. (also SIMONDS)
My GGrandmother was Elizabeth Kingsbery Semmens, the sister of Mary Jane.
Regards,
Peter
7/5/2007
Hi Harry
Thank you for all that, I am not sure about the change of spellings. My husband's mother did think they were cousins who married which is why the spellings were the same on the marriage certificate but all the records I have found spell Mary Jane's name as Simmons. Anyway, very interested in all the chat on Rootsweb, I think I was involved ins some of that.
Regards
Iris
7/5/2007
Iris,
...
I've attached a zipped version of the FTM file which you should be able to open / import. You will notice that there is a small group of 3 Goochs (John, Elizabeth and Norris) not actually attached to the main lines. They are included because they are are the neighbours of a family of Semmens and there's got to be a connection somewhere! It's too much of a coincidence. These have been added since I sent the GED file.
Little Totham , Tollshunt Darcy and Goldhanger are all small (to this day) villages in Essex within a few miles of each other.
Regards,
Peter.
26/3/2008 correspondence resumed on Genes Reunited, both of us forgot we'd corresponded before!!
Hi Peter
I believe we may have a match with William Semmens. My husband's grandfather was William Semmens born 1862 in Southwark Surrey, his parents were William and Maria(n) Semmens from Little Totham Essex. I have been struggling to find out any information on the Senoir William.
I am sorry but I do not have them on a tree for you to look at.
Regards
Iris Roberts
Australia
26/3/2008
Iris,
Yes it looks as if we have a connection.
On examination I am not a direct descendant of either William.
I am the great grandnephew of the wife of William Samuel Semmens b 3/1/1862. Her maiden name was Mary Jane Semmens b 4/11/1865 in Goldhanger in Essex. So there appears to have been some sort of cousin marriage, particularly as Gt Totham and Goldhanger are adjacent villages. However I can't as yet tie William Snr in with her ancestors.
I don't have any ancestors for Maria or William Snr. either, but I do have 3 generations for Mary, back to John Salmon (unknown DoB, probably c 1770 - 80)
William Jnr has the following notes
Joined Royal Navy aged 13 at Portsmouth.
Ch Petty Officer
On HMS Andromeda at the relief of Port Arthur
Also HMS Royal Oak
Captain(?) of mine sweeper during WW1 (? I suspect earlier)
Do you have any more information on William Jnr? At least 2 of his children were born in Portsmouth. My late Grandmother (one of 8 girls) could remember being sent, with her sisters, to holiday with an uncle in Portsmouth, and I speculate that it is he who may have retired from the Navy and gone to work in the dockyard as a foreman.
Beware -
1) Semmens is an unusual name, and most of them seem to be concentrated in Cornwall in the 1800s. I cannot establish a Cornish connection.
2) Many of our older ancestors appear to have been illiterate and their names were recorded by census takers and the clergy. Consequently the name changes over time (see John Salmon). It's often written as Simmonds and variants there of. Also found as Lemmens.
Regards,
Peter.
30/3/2008
Hi Peter
Thank you for all that information. I am particularly interested in the naval record of William as I have been unable to find anything on the National Archives website for him. Do you have his complete naval record? My husband is very interested especially as 4 generations on his father's side were all RN and we have found those records online. He also remembers him working in the dockyard after he retired. There are a few correction I can make for you. There were only three children, Maud Elizabeth b 1896, married Albert Victor Maxey Roberts (my husband's parents), Gladys May always known as May b 1898 married Harold Hazelgrove Swayne and William Leslie John b 1901 married Florence Victoria Burden. Mary Jane was definitely SIMMONS not Semmens. I know it says Semmens on the marriage certificate but that is an error as is the age of William he was 31 not 27.
We went to Goldhanger when we were in England a few years ago and went to the church were we met the church warden. She was kind enough to let us browse the original parish registers and we found several entries that were of interest to us. I also have Mary Jane's birth certificate and her parents are written very clearly as John Simmons and Rebecca Simmons formally Gooch.
...
Best regards
Iris
30/3/2008
Iris,
Unfortunately the only information I have about William's Navy career is the recollections of my Mother and Grandmother, both sadly deceased, and included in my previous note. I will however try to do some more research on him if I can get any further leads.
We do have a small problem. Mary Jane's sister, Elizabeth Kingsbery Semmens, was my Gt Grandmother. Her daughter, my late Grandmother, was quite insistent that she was Semmens not Simmons!!
I have a copy of John's death certificate which clearly states Semmens. But then, on the other hand, I have a copy of Ruth Maud's birth certificate (Mary and Elizabeth's other sister) which has them as Simmonds (note the 'd') By the time Ruth Maud gets married to her first husband,John Thomas Taylor, on 5/11/1893 the certificate says Semmens as it does on all the birth certificates of her children.
So it looks as if we will never know the truth. Various of our ancestors used Semmens, Simmons and Simmonds interchangeably. I have other BMD certificates and census records similarly showing most spellings.
I've also been searching the National Archives for the on-line Royal Navy records. So far I've tried searching on William Semmens / Simmons / Simmonds (3 searches) and William Samuel with no last name all for the period 1860 to 1918 with no luck. None of the people it finds bear any resemblance to "our" William. Do you have any more data, such as service number?
I've emailed them to see if they can come up with any information.
Regards,
Peter.
4/4/2008
Hi Iris,
I got a reply from the NRO, but it wasn't too helpful. The only advice they could offer was for someone to search their records in person, either myself, a professional genealogist, or one of their own staff (for a fee). They are currently undergoing building renovations and there are some restrictions in place. It would seem that a personal search would be better postponed till they are fully operational again in late Spring / early Summer.
It seems strange that there it no obvious record of him anywhere in the Navy lists that are searchable on line. Are we sure that he was in the RN and not the Merchant Navy?
Regards,
Peter.
4/4/2008
Hi Peter
Thank you.
We are fairly sure he was RN, on several certificates we have it indicates that. On My husband's mother's birth certificate it gives her father as Petty Officer RN. I suppose we will have to wait until the renovations are finished.
Regards
Iris
4/4/2008 - back to emails
Hi Iris,
I've forwarded the NRO email which says in much more detail pretty much what I put in my last note.
Regards,
Peter.
From: "ARK Records Enquiries" <enquiry@nationalarchives.gov.uk>
Sent: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:28:17 +0100
Subject: RE: New web enquiry
Dear Mr Jennings
Thank you for contacting The National Archives of the United Kingdom.
Depending on his rank we suggest that you look at the Information from Archives leaflets called
Royal Navy Ratings 1835 - 1945 (IFA M8) and Royal Navy Officers 1660 - 1945 (IFA M2)
(available at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/foi/research.htm).
These leaflets will contain advice on the types of document that can be searched for this kind of information:
each search is identified by a number. The leaflets also tell you how to use our paid search service.
Please read them carefully: they should be helpful even if you decide not to use our paid search service.
Once you have read them and identified the number/s of the search or searches you want, you have three ways to proceed:
1. You, or someone acting on your behalf, are welcome to visit us to do the research yourself.
Our staff will give you advice free of charge. For visiting details, please go to http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/visit.
The only payment would be if you then wanted to buy copies from our Record Copying Department.
You can take photographs of documents using your own digital camera, under certain rules.
For details of both options go to http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/recordcopying/.
2. You can request a formal quotation for a paid search, by replying to this email .
Please make it clear which of the numbered searches described in which leaflet you want us to undertake,
and make sure to include as much of the information requested in the leaflet as you can.
We will then send you the quotation and your payment options.
Do not send any payment until you have received our quotation.
3. You can hire an independent researcher to carry out specific or wider-ranging research for you,
both at The National Archives and in other relevant archives.
For details, and for a list of independent researchers who conduct research at The National Archives,
look at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/irlist/.
The fee that you will pay for this service is a matter for yourself and the researcher:
it may be significantly less than the fee that we would charge.
We wish you every success in your research, but please be aware that the records in our custody are not always complete:
they were not created or kept for research purposes, but for use by the government or law courts of the day.
We cannot guarantee that you will find what you are looking for.
If you need to respond to this email, please click on Reply to do so.
It is very helpful for us for the text of the earlier emails to be included.
For a new enquiry, please go to http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/contact/form/.
Yours sincerely
Alan Bowgen
Remote Enquiries Duty Officer
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Comments to: Adrian Jobson,
Remote Enquiries Manager,
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/contact/form/
Iris,
I've just been contacted by Judith Cordingley who's friend has both William Semmens in their family tree.
Regards,
Peter.
Judith Cordingley
4/4/2008
Hi Peter,
It is actually Iris Roberts I am trying to help. She asked me for help with the Southwark connection as many of my ancestors are from this area. I have only started to look today.
I won't get much chance to look before Sunday, but I have William, 1862 as the son of Samuel and Maria Semmens, living in Gt Union Street, Southwark in 1861 and in 1871 with his father Samuel and step mother Sarah in 1871 in West Ham. His father married Sarah Ann Wood in Sep qtr of 1863 in Newington. I think the first marriage may be that shown in freeBMD as Samuel James Simmonds to Maria Simmonds in the Sep qtr of 1850 in the Maldon RD.
What do you think?
Judi
Judi,
OK, so we're all working together on the same things.
As far as my researches can tell, in the area East of Maldon, Essex lived the Semmens / Simmons / Simmonds and the Gooch families. They were concentrated in the 5 villages of Goldhanger, Great and Little Totham and Tollshunt Major and D'Arcy. With the help of others (see Roots Chat forums) I've traced the Semmens line back to one John Salmon who must have been born about 1780.
Starting about 1850-60 the families moved from Essex, mostly to what is present day SE London. The areas of Rotherhithe & Southwark etc. Although one (Martin Semmens b c 1844 in Goldhanger) went to Devon and later Cornwall, where he may have found the indigenous Semmens families and, probably being illiterate, assumed that was what his name should be. This may have propagated back to Essex and caused the confusion. However this is pure speculation on my behalf.
If you have any genealogy software, I can send you a full extract of my database and you can see if it ties in with your Southwark ancestors.
Your information on William's father is interesting as it is at odds with mine! However I'm quite willing to believe I've got it wrong somewhere along the line. Do you have any BMD certs. for him or his two wives? Was Maria Simmonds her married name or are we looking at another possible cousin marriage?
The Maldon connection ties in nicely with my research.
I do have a Samuel James Semmens b1803 in Tollesbury Essex, but he is the father of John Semmens, my Gt Gt Grandfather who in turn was the father of Mary Jane who married William Samuel Semmens, our prime person of interest.
Samuel James married Mary Ann Johnson b 1806 in Little Totham, d 26/10/1854 in Goldhanger.
I do have him with a second wife, Mary Ann Shepherd b 1806 in Colchester. They were married in 1859. He died 8/1/1871
One theory why William Samuel Semmens does not appear in a census of 1881 and 1891 is that he was at sea at the time. We would have to track down the crew lists to confirm this.
Regards,
Peter.
5/4/2008
Hello Peter,
I'll reply in full, when I have looked at this properly. However, I think that Samuel James Semmens oldest son, James, born c 1827 is the same Samuel James whom I believe to be the father of William, but unless anyone buys William's, born 1862 birth cert, or accesses the PRs, it is only supposition.
Best wishes
Judi
6/4/2008 - back to Iris
Hi Peter
Thank you, I received you emails.
Very strange that I have recently been in touch with Judi Cordingly, though I was unaware that she had Semmens in her family. I contacted
her as she was in my contact list with contacts in Southwark. The email she sent is very interesting, I had found what I thought was a second for Samuel but she has quite a lot more information for us. I have a son James on the 1861 Census which she does not have on her list, born about 1854 and Ann Maria was born Sept qtr 1859. I will have to go back to the records and find all these other children. I am very keen to find the naval records so I am thinking we may ask my husband's nephew to go to Kew in a month or two and see what he can find out. His father, quite elderly now, was in the RN so would be interested in William's record.
Thanks again
Regards
Iris
Barbara Semmens
11/10/2006
1851 Census, Goldhanger:
James Simmens age 48 ag.lab., born Tollesbury
Mary Ann " age 46 born Little Totham
Mark " son 16 Goldhanger
John 12 Goldhanger
David 10 Goldhanger
Martin 7 Goldhanger
Job * mths Goldhanger
This was from Essex Record Office; I was looking for Martin.
Barbara Semmens
12/10/2006
Barbara,
Thanks very much for this info. I've been stuck for several years with John and his wife Rebecca nee Gooch.
This is yet another misspelling of Semmens. By the time John and Rebecca have moved to London, they are recorded in the 1881 census as Simmons.
I now have another generation, John's parents. It's strange that neither John nor Rebecca are recorded in the Birth or Marriage records of sites such as FreeBMD.com or 1837.com. Well at least not under the names I know them as.
Thanks once again,
Regards,
Peter Jennings
10/6/2007
Hi Barbara,
I was going back over your note from last October and have been looking at your tree. Just a thought, Samuel James Semmens apparently married twice. Mary Ann Shepherd b c1806 and Mary Ann Johnson b c 1805, by whom he had 8 children. Now did Samuel have a thing for local girls called Mary Ann, or are they one and the same person, under their maiden / 1st marriage names?
Regards,
Peter.
25/6/2007
Hi Peter.
Thanks for your message.The surname SEMMENS seems not to have occurred in Essex; it was SIMMONS or SALMON(S) or SIMMONDS or a veriety of spellings!
Samuel James married (1) as a bachelor in 1826 Mary Ann JOHNSON; they had 8 children and she was buried as Mary Ann SIMMONDS age 48, 1854 at Goldhanger, where they appear to have spent their married life. He married (2)in 1859 a widow, Mary Ann SHEPHERD. The first Mary Ann married as 'Ann'; the second seems to be referred to as 'Mary'. Mary Ann was an extremely common name! As far as I can see the surname became SEMMENS when Samuel James' son Martin settled in Cornwall where there are a lot of SEMMENSes.
Regards,
Barbara.
26/6/2007
Thanks, Peter. In fact John has just sent me your file - 13 pages- which I've just downloaded and have yet to go through. I have told him one error: Samuel James' second wife, the widow Mary Ann Shepherd was, according to the Tolleshunt d'Arcy 1871 Census, born in Colchester.
Will be in touch again. Email address is [deleted - pjaj]
Regards,
Jean
15/7/2007
Peter,
Harold (jnr).c 1915, Arthur Douglas 1919 and Edgar Henry born 11.04.1925 were all born at home, 18 Fellowes Place, Devonport, Plymouth. They sometimes said, "Stoke" instead of "Devonport" as they were at a junction of three Plymouth districts. They would have been christened at Stoke Damerel church as Harold (Senr) was im the choir and the boys were made to go to Church 2 - 3 times each Sunday. Edgar Henry married me at Lady St. Mary's church, Wareham, Dorset 18.08.1948; there followed 4 children and a divorce after which he wed Jennifer Morgan.
Barbara - always called Jean
Les Kirkden
2/7/2007
Hallo Peter,
I've attached that tree. it's in PDF.I have certs to back most of this up but see what you think.
As I said there are so many repeated names it's hard to sort them out.I've found most of the
Goldhanger records are Simmon(d)s not Semmens which makes it worse.
Bye for now, Les.
3/7/2007
Les,
Thanks very much for the information. That's 2 more people for my tree, Joseph Kingsbury and Samuel Jordan.
Is it safe to say that Joseph and Mary were brother and sister? cousins?
It explains how the name Kingsbury gets carried down the female line for several generations
Joseph and Mary Kingsbury
Rebecca Kingsbury Gooch (my GG Grandmother)
Elizabeth Kingsbury Semmens (my G Grandmother)
I've found Mary Kingsbury (nee Jordan) with her 4 children in the 1841 census.
She is described as a dress maker.
It looks as if I've also found her son Joseph Kingsbury in the 1881 and 1891 census
living in Salisbury Terrace Everton Liverpool
The age and place of birth match and he is a Barge Waterman, like many of his kin.
I'll let you know if I track down anyone else.
Regards,
Peter.
Hallo Peter,
Glad you got that OK.Mary Kingsbury should read "died on or after 9 Oct 1838 (birth of son John). This is where my theory comes unstuck as I can't find her death.She was obviously alive at this birth & James Gooch was a widower on his marriage to Mary Jordan so something doesn't quite add up here so be wary about adding it to your tree.I use findmypast.com for the FRC records but they haven't yet got the 1851 census so I can't move on.The parish records would be very handy too but don't know if they're online. It would be great if you get in touch with a Kingsbury descendant to help sort this out. I notice you have a name for Rebecca (Cockley ). Did this come from a parish record? My printer is playing up at the moment so I havn't been able to print out & study your files.
Bye for now, Les.
4/7/2007
Les,
I got the information about Rabecca Cockley from another researcher on RootsChat. If you go to "our" topic in the Essex forum
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,230312.0.html
and scroll down till you find the long post from "cep". At the bottom of his / her post you will find:-
=======
IGI Submitted Record
James Gooch, bap 25 Oct 1804, Little Totham
Parents: James Gooch, Rebecca Cockley
and
James Gooch m. Rebecca Cockley, 27 Jul 1804, Little Totham
=======
This is my original source. I've had a look on the IGI (Mormons) site and found 4 records concerning her:
Birth:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100103182369
Christening:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=500022304141
Marriage:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100116275556
Christening of James Gooch, her son:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100115826520
Her Christening record gives her father's name (Daniel), her mother's name (Hannah) and details of which church register was transcribed (if you follow the links far enough)
I downloaded a GEDCOM file for her and her parents. So your question as to my source has unearthed yet another generation and 2 more persons. I don't quite see what your problem with the slightly complex marriage arrangements for
Kingsbury / Jordan / Gooch / Kingsbury.
I'm sure that there are many holes in the records.
On the FreeBMD site for death records of Mary Gooch between Sep 1837 and Dec 1845 and found a record for the death of a Mary Gooch in the Malden register
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/information.pl?r=2225669&d=bmd_1182342030
This gives a date of the September quarter of 1839. I've viewed the original scanned image, but it doesn't give any more information. This may well be her, but I couldn't say for certain.
What do you want looked up on the 1851 census? I think I've got access to it via a subscription to ancestry.co.uk which came free with my copy of FTM.
I doubt if many parish records are on line as images, but the Mormons have transcribed many of them onto their site and you may well find what you want there. For instance they appear to have Little Totham, but not Goldhanger (as far as I can tell). You can also go to one of their Family History Centers and view the records on microfilm:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/LDS/centres.txt
Regards,
Peter.
Hallo Peter,
I sent for 3 death certs yesterday. 2 at the top of that tree I sent, Samuel Jordan b c 1781 & James Gooch also b c 1781. I found them both in the Mar Qu 1842.No ages given at this time of course but I'm sure these must be right. I must have looked for James Gooch before but didn't find him. The other one is Mary Simmonds (nee Johnson) wife of James Simmonds in Mar Qu. 1851. I didn't see any other Mary on the 1841 census so I'm hoping this one is right. Those Kingsburys may be related but without parish registers hard to find out.
Bye for now, Les.
Hallo Peter,
I've been looking through you Gooch tree & find you have James Gooch(1804) married Rebecca. I only have him married to Mary Jordan & Mary Kingsbury.Was this a marriage previous to Mary Jordan?
Bye for now, Les.
Les,
The file you have was generated before I received your data and is obviously wrong! There must have been some mix up between the two Jameses and their wives. I can't remember where I got the original information from, but I guess someone misread the birth / christening record and confused father with son.
I now have James Gooch (1804) only married to Mary Jordan and Mary Kingsbury, and this is taken from the tree you sent me a few days ago.
The only James Gooch married to a Rebecca is the father (1781) married to Rebecca Cockley.
These are the only 2 James Goochs in my tree.
I will post a correction on the RootsChat site.
Regards,
Peter.
Hallo Peter,
I'm glad that was a mistake, it might have ruined my theory. On that site as you know there is also details of the 1851 census which I don't have.As I said I was unable to find the death of Mary Gooch (nee Kingsbury). On the 1851 James Gooch is down as a widow. The only Mary Gooch death I found was in 1848. I thought this was his second wife nee Jordan but wasn't sure as the informant was a Sarah Parminter so I was unable to connect.On the 1841 which I have James is there with 2 kids Mary & John but no wife so I thought he must be a widow here.I decided to look through again for Mary Gooch's (nee Kingsury) death from the birth of the last child 9 Oct 1838 to 1841 (census) & this time I found her:-
Death Mary Gooch, Maldon 12, 97, Sep Qu.1839.
How I missed this before I don't know so it looks like my tree is correct. He wasn't very lucky with wives was he? The Rebecca Gooch Kingsbury aged 6 on the 1851 with them is from his scond marriage to Mary Jordan.I'll send details of these certs when I get them or scan & email all the relevant ones if you want.It looks like this minefield will soon be sorted out. The trouble is he married 2 Marys. I've been tracking down other parts of my wife's tree till I got on to Rootsweb. I did't think I could resolve the Gooch one.
Bye for now, Les.
Les,
Yes, that death record of Mary Gooch (nee Kingsbury) is the same one I found on the FreeBMD site and to which I included a link in my last note to you at 01:46 this morning.
I've sent Janet Mulvihill copies of the only two certs I have, the marriage and death of Elizabeth Kingsbury Semmens (EKS), my G Grandmother, her GG Aunt.
I now need to turn my attention to two more puzzles.
One in the Semmens line.
Have a look at my notes on a possible cousin marriage:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,239454.msg1297000.html#msg1297000
This does suppose that the names were genuinely the same and not just written down as they sounded. Mary Jane Semmens was, of course, the sister of EKS, but I can't find the connection that links her husband, William Samuel Semmens, back into her ancestors. His father, also William, was born c. 1828 in Little Totham, so we are back in the same small group of Essex villages.
And one in the Gooch
I have a John Gooch born c 1790 married to Elizabeth ?? born c 1795 and their son Norris born c 1843 all 3 were born in Tollshunt Darcy. In 1861 census they are living at 46 Greenwood Cottages Tollshunt Darcy. Next to Samuel James, David and Job Semmens (Simons).
Who are these 3?
What, if any is their relation to the Gooches we've already identified.
Is it a pure coincidence their neighbours are Semmens?
Regards,
Peter.
6/7/2007
Hallo Peter,
I can't get on that site tonight, it must be busy.I'll try tomorrow. You may know Janet Mulvihill is my wife June's sister. It was her son that went on to Rootweb site & told me about it.
I just need to wait for those certs to arrive now. There are some holes to fill in the tree but the basic structure seems OK.
My wife's grandmother (Annie Elizabeth Maud Taylor) always said the name was Semmens not Simmonds & that it originated in France.Last year I got in touch with Peter John Semmens who is a descendant of Alfred John Semmens b 1899 & John Mark Semmens b 1869 & John Semmens b 12 May 1838.He told me his mother told him the same thing. When he mentioned this we were very surprised.When I look for Semmens in the registers about 90% of Semmens are in Penzance.It might be possible they were French Protestants fleeing. I suppose this would be difficult to prove. Have you heard anything like this. Unfortunately Peter Semmens knows almost nothing about his ancestors & he not on email. I just update him from time to time.He lives in Suffolk & said he nearly bought a house in Goldhanger not knowing the significance at the time.
Bye for now, Les.
Hi Les,
That's interesting, my late grandmother (Rebecca Ayling 1896) told me a similar story about the Semmens name. Her Grandfather was John Semmens 1838. She was also descended from the Gooch families living in the same area of Essex and these too may have been originally French Gouge (or similar). [1]
On the other hand, there is one researcher on Genes Reunited who maintains that the family name was originally Simons or Simonds and that it was only when Martin (John's brother) went to Cornwall and discovered himself "surrounded" by Semmens that he started to use the name, which he passed on to his descendants.
I'm skeptical about this theory because, although I've found several different spellings, (including Lemmens as a transcription error!) Semmens appears in some records before Martin went to Cornwall, and it is more wide spread in the family than just his descendants. This includes my grandmother who always maintained her mother's maiden name was Semmens.
I think I will ask a question on the Cornwall forum of RootsChat to see if there is any French connection and also if there are any links to Essex.
Regards,
Peter.
Hallo Peter,
I got onto that site OK this morning.Ithought this must be a cousin marriage when I was entering your details last night. William Samuel is new one to me. I thought John Mark was the first after I found them on the census.I was in the RN but have never accsessed any records. I have my doubts about the Martin theory too. It would be great if you could contact someone on the Cornwall forum. There must be quite a few down there wondering about the Essex Semmens. It's just a thought that they may have come from Brittany as the Bretons had there own language like Cornwall & were forbidden to use it for a long time. Hope you get lucky.
Bye for now, Les.
12/7/2007
Hallo Peter,
The attached cert is the only one of the 3 I sent for which must be correct. The Samuel Jordan one was aged 30 so born c 1812 & is at Woodham, not Goldhanger which means another search. The Mary Simmonds 1851 was aged 77 so born c 1774 so could fit somewhere but not the one I want. I scanned & enhanced that cert but am not that conversant with doing it so let me know if it's not very good. The cert itself is not that clear but is 2nd Feb 1842, age 61, Waterman, inflammation of the lungs, informant Hannah Barb----.no indication of relationship, if any.
I went on Google & input "Goldhanger".( I never thought of doing this before) & came up with their website. There's not a lot on it but I emailed onr of the councillors (Alison) to ask if there were any Parish records online. This is most unlikely but I've also asked if there's any info on the Gooch, Kingsbury & Semmens, Simmon(d)s families. It looks like it's now known for it's leisure facilities, boats etc.What I did find interesting was on the Historic sites was All Saints Church which has a triangular steeple because of it's French connection! So I might at least find about that here.I should think any Parish registers are at the nearest big town (Colchester)..
Bye for now, Les.
Les,
Well done. That's certainly our man, It ties up with the DoB year exactly.
What software do you use for processing images? I've got access to Photoshop and I've just bought a new scanner, so if you want me to have a go at scanning / enhancing any documents or images, and you trust me with the originals, then I'd be only too willing to try. Not that I think I could have done any better than you in this case.
I ran a search on Ancestry.co.uk for Hannah Barb* for Essex without specifying any dates and it found a possible hit in the 1841 census.
Fish St Goldhanger Hannah Barbrook married to Thomas with 3 children.
The house number isn't given.
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 339; Book: 1; Civil Parish: Goldhanger; County: Essex; Enumeration District: 4; Folio: 8; Page: 9; Line: 21; GSU roll: 241376.
But 2 pages on through the images of Fish St, there's James Gooch a few doors away:
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 339; Book: 1; Civil Parish: Goldhanger; County: Essex; Enumeration District: 4; Folio: 6; Page: 6; Line: 3; GSU roll: 241376.
He's living with his wife, son James and two grandchildren.
Name Age
James Gooch 60
James Gooch 35
John Gooch 2
Mary Gooch 5
Rebeca Gooch 55
Now this is interesting because Mary Gooch nee Kingsbury isn't there.
She could be away from home, but it probably means that she was dead by then.
I'll keep looking.
Regards,
Peter.
13/7/2007
Hallo Peter,
Thanks for that. Looking at the cert. this definately looks like Barbrook.
The Mary Gooch nee Kingsbury is the death I didn't find before. It should have arrived today but I think there was a postal strike one day so they're probably catching up. I thought you said this is the one you had, died Sep Qu.1839. This is Mary Gooch Number one. If this isn't the one you've got I'll email it when it arrives.
I'm using Adobe Photoshop 5. I think it's because I'm not in the habit of using it.
I've also been looking at the Simmons 1841 & comparing it with the 1851. On the 1841 it's Mary Simmons & on the 1851 it's Mary Ann. On the birth cert for John Simmons b 12 May 1838 she is just down as Mary Simmons nee Johnson (I'll attach this one). When I saw the 1851 I thought I had a different family but the kid's names & ages match up so she must have been Mary Ann Johnson.
While I was looking for the death of Mary Simmonds (the dud one I got the other day) I came accross Death of Mary Ann Simmonds Dec Qu. 1854 so this could be her but I have doubts as in the census they are down as Simmons but this may be unimportant. What's also confusing is on the 1861 census, what must be the same family it's Samuel James Simmons 57 with David,12 & Job 10. Mary Ann isn't with them but Samuel James is down as Head not widow. Quite possibly a simple mistake.I might send for this Mary Ann death & possibly either David's or Job's birth to try & sort this out. These families have been a real nightmare!
Bye for now, Les.
Hi Les,
I just went back to the image of the 1841 census for James Gooch and noticed what appears to be a family called Semmons living almost next door:
Name Age
George Semmons 2
John Semmons 44
John Semmons 8 Mo
Prigsella Semmons 14
Priscilla Semmons 40
Rhoda Semmons 10
Now where do they fit in?!
They are not obviously my missing link to the 1893 cousin marriage
In the end I've trawled through the entire census for Goldhanger, 22 pages, 520 people to see if there are any family members we've missed and I've found all the usual suspects plus an "odd" Kinsbury.
James Semmens and his family are in an adjacent street which looks to be Chaple St (sic) although there is no such street in the modern Goldhanger possibly it's now Church St.
At what looks like "Decoy Farm" we find a Thomas Kinsbury aged 25 and the other Kingsburys are also in Chaple St.
Regards,
Peter.
15/7/2007
Hallo Peter,
I got the Mary Gooch death this morning. I was rather taken aback at the informant, Mary Kingsbury! I thought there was another Kingsbury family I'd missed. Then it dawned on me this is Mary Kingsbury nee Jordan recently the widow of Joseph Kingsbury who later married James Gooch herself in 1845 then died herself in 1848.This seems the most likely explanation. What's your thoughts on this?
I sent for Mary Ann Simmonds death, 1854 hoping it's the right one, also Job's birth in 1850. I didn't find David but looked today under Male Simmonds & found :-Male Simmonds, Maldon, 12 156, June Qu.1841. Accoding to the 1841 he was 1 month so I sent for this too. with checkpoints dad James Simmonds, Mum Mary.
As for Samuel Jordan's death following on from my dud, I started looking from 1842. (He doesn't seem to be in the 1851) It was like buses. You wait for ages then two turn up!
Samuel Johnson, Maldon, 12 135 Mar Qu.1847
Samuel Johnson, Maldon, 12 157 Mar Qu. 1847
I opted for the first one with a checkpoint, aged about 66.If there's two choices I always seem to pick the wrong one so we'll see.
Bye for now, Les.
17/7/2007
Hi Les,
As I said in my previous note, I can search the individual census in Ancestry.co.uk with wild cards or just a place name (gives all 750+ persons in Goldhanger in 1841 for instance). I've just spent an hour with the 1841 census collecting all the Gooch, Kingsbury and Semmons (note no Semmens) names in "our" part of Essex only to have my email program crash just before I was about to send them to you.
Lost the lot @#££$% !!
Still there were no great revelations and if you would like any specific searches in any of the censuses 1841 - 1901 let me know.
I think you've got it right about Mary Kingsbury.
Best of luck with your searches, I look forward to the results.
Regards,
Peter.
Hallo Peter,
Sorry about your crash. I must be due for a crash, haven't had one for a while. I've been on XP for a while now & it's been a lot better than 98.
The only census I haven't got access to on my site is 1851. It would be a great help if you what Gooch, Kingsbury & Simmon(d)s there are in Goldhanger. I have a few of these families in the 1861 in other nearby areas like Burnham. I suppose they could be related but unless I find a connection I'll put them to one side & concentrate on Goldhanger It does look like Mary & Joseph Kingsbury were maybe brother & sister as there doesn't seem to be many Kingsburys about although there are 3 Kingsbury families in Burnham in 1841.
I haven't heard back from Goldhanger yet. If the parish records are at Chelmsford or Colchester I'm hoping the maybe online. I'm curious about getting some info from Goldhanger re the French connection.
Janet came down last night for a friends funeral. She brought copies of the certs you sent her, Semmens/Ayling marriage & her death. I notice on the marriage the witnesses were her sister Ruth Maud Semmens & John Taylor who she later married. When she took up with Robert Missen & had 2 kids, Bob & Charlie she never divorced but got married after John Taylor's death in 1932. It took me ages to find this marriage. I wasn't even sure they got married at the time.
Bye for now, Les.
Les,
I've found that I can cut and paste whole sections of the census search results into a spread sheet which makes it quick, easier to view and manipulate. And it's saved!!
I've got all the Gooch, Kingsbury and Semmons records for Goldhanger for both 1841 and 1851.
Have you got a copy of Microsoft Excel (or compatible)? If not then I will convert the file to a .txt format and send it to you as part of an email.
I liked XP Pro, but I'm now running Vista Ultra. [2]
Regards,
Peter.
Hallo Peter,
I'm on MS Office 2003 which has Excel. I have used this or other purposes but never thought of it for census purposes. You must be more computer literate than me.
I notice on your tree there's Gladys Muriel & then another Gladys. Is this correct?
Do you want any more certs? If there's a precise date on my tree then I've probably got it. I've now got to wait till my others turn up.
Bye for now, Les.
Hi Les,
Here's the spreadsheet, I also use Office 2003 so there shouldn't be any compatibility problems.
If you want to copy data out of a table on a web page into Excel, highlight the data, right click > copy. Go to Excel and right click on the top left hand cell of the area into which you want to paste it. Select "paste special" and then click on the paste button (if it isn't already selected) and select the "Unicode Text" option and OK
As for computer literacy, well you caught me! I'm a retired IBM senior software engineer and I've been using computers for the best part of 40 years.
The only Gladys I've got is Gladys M Semmens b 1898 in Portsmouth. Daughter of my possible cousin marriage William Samuel Semmens and Mary Jane Semmens. Didn't know she was Muriel, what else do you know about this family, especially William's grandparents?
Where's the other Gladys, I can't find her at the moment.
Regards,
Peter.
NOTES.
[1] Another possible derivation of the name Semmens is the more prosaic corrption of the name Seaman.
Litterally a man who worked at sea, and certainly many of the Essex Semmens were boat men, fishermen or barge men
(when they wern't the ubiquetous Ag Lab)
[2] I've since abandonned Vista and gone back to XP Pro SP2.